A Composer In His Natural Habitat
A Composer In His Natural Habitat
Habitat #002 - Family For-tune with Nora Baggaley
In this episode, Thomas's wife Nora joins the podcast as a guest co-host to discuss things the couple has learned about balancing creative pursuits and having a family.
To join an ongoing discussion about the topics addressed in this and other episodes, we invite you to join our Discord channel ("A Composer's Natural Habitat") by going to https://discord.gg/8F7Yuc9Mne.
Thomas: [00:00:00] Hello, future Thomas here. I just wanted to make a note before we started today's podcast. This being our second episode, we're sorting out some of the audio details. The audio recording on this is listenable, but not to the ideal that I would like, because we tried some different things for ... this is basically our first two-person podcast ... with a co-host, so I hope you'll bear with us a little bit. I think you'll be able to hear just fine and understand just fine, but I wanted to just make a note of that before we start today's podcast. Thanks!
[Intro Music] [00:00:36]
Thomas: [00:01:12] Welcome to A Composer In His Natural Habitat ... a podcast about creativity and music featuring Thomas C. Baggaley
Thomas: [00:01:29] Habitat #2 Family For-tune
Thomas: [00:01:32] Hello everyone! I'm Thomas Baggaley and this is "A Composer In His Natural Habitat" as the introduction said. Today we are really lucky because we have a special guest co-host that I'm really excited about. It's my wife, Nora Baggaley. Nora, welcome!
Nora: [00:01:50] Hi, thanks hunny! Hi, everyone!
Thomas: [00:01:53] So why don't you go ahead and tell us a bit about yourself.
Nora: [00:01:56] Okay, I have a bachelor's degree in history and English from BYU. I have a master's degree in library and information sciences, and I currently work as a program mentor for WGU online, so I get to telecommute, which I love. I have three amazing kids, and I have been married to someone wonderful for 28 years.
Thomas: [00:02:16] Wow, someone else too, huh? [Laughter] Alright, that's great. So, I'm really excited today. We're going to be talking about families and artists, and I guess there's a ... well, there's a myth out there that you have to choose between being a creative person and having a family, so we're going to talk about some of that a little bit. But first, let's get into the regular part of the show where we talk about what we are working on.
[Sfx: Hammering, drilling] [00:02:45]
[Music [00:02:49]
Thomas: [00:02:56] What are you working on?
Thomas: [00:03:05] So, what are you working on?
Nora: [00:03:07] Right now, I am working on updating my home. I'm one of those funny people that thinks creativity isn't limited to things like painting ... which I do and quite enjoy ... or singing ... which I also do and quite enjoy. But it can be incorporated in every single aspect of our lives. I do everything from sewing to cooking, painting, drawing. I think creativity is unlimited.
Thomas: [00:03:37] Excellent. You know, I agree, and that's a good thing, 'cause that helps. It helps in our home that we agree about that, and it's true. Creativity can be of value in about every aspect of...
Nora: [00:03:52] Mmhmm.
Thomas: [00:03:53] Of whatever you do and ... finding creative solutions to different things. One of the things that I've always enjoyed, and I teased you a lot about is, for instance, when you're cooking and you have a recipe. If cook, I have to follow that recipe exactly, 'cause if I make any variation from that recipe it's going to be ... it's going to be a disaster. But I know for a fact that when you cook, those are just kind of guidelines and suggestions to you.
Nora: [00:04:20] [Laughs] They are too.
Thomas: [00:04:21] [Laughs] And then you go ahead and improvise and it always turns out even better than it would have been if we'd just have followed the recipe normally, so ... that's wonderful.
Nora: [00:04:33] It's kind of like, I love this recipe, let's change it all. [Laughter]
Thomas: [00:04:36] That's right, and I've been the beneficiary of that for 28 years, so I really appreciate that. All right. Great. Well, what have I been working on? As I mentioned in the last episode, I've been working on my book. And that's going really nicely. I'm about 47,000 words into the first draft, so it's looking really, really good about getting that done. In the next week or so actually. I think I'll have that first draft completed. And that's good, but I've also been working on ... lately ... a song. I've been getting myself into the mode, because I'm writing music for Broadway, and I went back to some of my roots. And way back when I was 18 years old, before I knew Nora, I actually wrote in the Broadway style for a Songwriting class. And I found that song and I was listening to it, and I thought, "Wow. This isn't bad." And then, of course, I changed it all. [Laughter]
Thomas: [00:05:36] I didn't change a whole lot, but I ... you know, songs are never finished, they're only abandoned. So I got back into rewriting that a little bit, and ... it may be the starting place for something else, I don't know, but I've certainly been enjoying working on that, and it's gotten me back into the mode of writing some show tunes and hopefully that will lead on to the bigger project that I'm working on, which is a musical adaptation of ... of some, some story that I'm still trying to figure out what that is. I haven't ... I've got some feelers out and some requests in to some people, but haven't heard anything back yet. So we're building towards that.
Thomas: [00:06:19] Future Thomas here again. One of the things I'd like to do in the podcast, when possible, is to share at least portions of my works in progress. I want to do this, because I think it's helpful to see projects develop. We don't often get to hear anything but the final polished version. It's kind of hard hard to really learn from that, I guess, and I think it's also helpful for ... for a composer to hear how a project develops and hear other people's work when it's not finished. So you can sense maybe that "Oh, maybe I am on the right track. That sounds a lot like my work now that I'm about ... you know ... through the first draft and I'm just not sure how good it is." So, with that in mind, I thought I'd insert a snippet of the song I was just talking about before going on with the podcast. The title of the song, is "Her Song," which come to think of it is kind of confusing because it's really my song, but what can you do? [Laughs]
Thomas: Alright. So first of all, I found a recording of a live performance of the song back from 1989. I wrote this song when I was 18 years old when I was in college. I'm not going to play that recording for you, because in that performance, I was playing the piano and as we just got to the first chorus, I tried to shift the music on the piano so I could see it better and ended up knocking the whole thing off onto the floor. And no, even though I wrote the song, I didn't have it memorized, and I was only 18 years old and so, I didn't know what to do. I quickly leaned over, stopped playing, gathered up the music and put it back on the piano. My vocalist, who was a friend, just kept singing without an accompanist. Really impressive on her part. And as soon as I got the music together, I just caught up with her and we were off again. We got a nice, appreciative applause from the audience right in the middle of the song, for the recovery. And ... But I'm not going to put you through having to listen to all of that. It doesn't sound all that great because, you know, the piano just kind of drops out.
Thomas: Instead, what I'm going to play here is a portion of a quick MIDI realization of the song as I have been rewriting it. Now, as you listen to this, keep in mind that this is not a finished, ready-for-the-public production. It's just an audio export from my music notation software. I think it gives you a pretty good idea of what the music sounds like, but in no way is this something I'd call "done." Please listen to it with that in mind. The vocal part does not include any of the lyrics. It's a MIDI "ah" sound that is playing the vocal part, but you can find updated lyrics on my website at baggaleymusic.com. And hopefully, that will give you at least a sense of what it is that I've been talking about with this song in this podcast. So here goes. "Her Song" ... which is my song.
[Music] [00:09:15]
[Music ends] [00:10:04]
Thomas: [00:10:06] Okay, that gave you a little taste of the song that I was talking about in this episode. I plan to be polishing it up over the next little while, and we'll be releasing the sheet music soon for purchase, so ... and I also plan to write out a fully-orchestrated version at some point, so I'm sure I'll be talking about that more in the podcast in the future. Just to give you a little bit of background about the song itself, it's a song about writer's block. As an 18-year-old with a deadline, not knowing what to write about, having to a write a song for a songwriting class that I took as a freshman, I decided to finally just write a song about ... about writer's block. About not knowing what to write. And ... it really turned out a lot better than probably it should have. I really discovered some things about the character that was supposed to have writer's block in this. There's a play behind it that doesn't exist yet. And a character who has writer's block, and there's a reason that she has writer's block, and that goes on ... you can find that out through the song, if you look up the lyrics again on my website at baggaleymusic.com. But it's a fun little song, and it's kind of fun to go back sometimes and look at the stuff you've written in the past. Anyway, back to the podcast. Let's get back to the main discussion, back with my wife, Nora.
[Fanfare Music] [00:11:37]
Thomas: [00:11:47] [With Chorus Effect] Questions!
Thomas: [00:11:52] [Music continues underneath] We have a couple of questions this time around to talk about. First of all, Timbre asked ... sent in a question, and he was asking basically, "Will you have an episode based on movies you are not attuned to? It would really interesting to hear how you analyze a movie you don't like." And so ... Yeah, we're definitely going to be having some episodes, I think, where we're going to talk about film music. That's certainly a big part of my background. And it's really interesting. When you work in this field, it's no longer a matter of "Do I like that film or do I not like that film?" You're much more granular about it, instead. And you've ... you've gone to movies with me, Nora. you know how it is when you walk out.
Nora: [00:12:46] Laughs. I was going to say, "And when you're the composer's wife, it's no longer about whether or not you like the movie. It's ... that music really added to the drama of that moment, don't you think?" [Laughter]
Thomas: [00:12:57] Yeah, and ... you get a lot more analytical about it, so even a film that I don't like, I can say, "Oh, I really liked what they tried to do here, and in that spot, I like the choice that the composer made." And over her, which was probably everybody else's favorite part, I was thinking, "Oh, man, that music! I would have done this differently." And so, it's a much more analytical approach. It certainly does change the way that you watch movies or listen to music. We'll have an episode about that too, actually. If I'm studying music, is that going to ruin music for me forever? We'll definitely be talking about that ... quick spoiler about that, no. Actually, it's going to increase your enjoyment.
Nora: [00:13:40] And your appreciation.
Thomas: [00:13:42] Yes. Your appreciation and enjoyment at a much deeper level. Absolutely, and so, look forward to looking at that as we move on to ... to future episodes. Those are things that we definitely want to explore and talk about in some detail.
Thomas: [00:14:03] We also have another question that came in. This one is from Sarah, and Sarah asks the following. She says, "From your experiences and experiences from knowing other musicians and performers, how can a touring musician balance time with family and time on the road for their career?" And I guess Sarah kind of had a heads-up about what this episode was going to be about, so she wanted to talk about that as far as ... I guess she has interest in being a touring musician herself. And that is one of the issues, certainly, that comes up for musicians. How do you do that when ... when a lot of artists, that's how they make their money. I mean, that ... the music industry, that's the way it's developed now. You don't make a lot of money for your recordings. People don't buy music any more, because they can listen to whatever music they want to for free on several of the streaming services ... the most popular one actually being YouTube. You just go on there and find the song you want and listen to it when you want to listen to it. And so, that's become an issue for musicians, because ... because people aren't buying their recordings anymore. They also don't make a whole lot of money from streaming. It's been well-documented that, for instance, a single stream on Spotify is about half of a cent for the artist and for the songwriter.
Nora: [00:15:38] That does not build up fast.
Thomas: [00:15:39] That does not build up fast at all, especially if you are splitting it between ... you know ... if you've got a whole band of people and a bunch of songwriters that wrote the song, all of a sudden that half-a-cent gets split up even further. And that's Spotify, which pays relatively well. On the YouTube side, which is even more ... more popular ... that's where a lot of the young people go listen to their music, it pays 1/40th of that, so it ... it takes a lot of streams to amount to anything. So streaming ... streaming and broadcast has never been a huge part of the ... piece of the puzzle for musicians to make their money. It's always been an advertisement for other things. But since people aren't buying recordings anymore, that leaves touring and performing. And that's where a lot of musicians ... at least before COVID ... had been looking to making their money ... is from live performances. So that becomes an issue and a question that a lot of musicians are worried about, because touring ... that can be really tough on a family. But at the same time, you know, a touring musician ... one of the questions we have to ask really about that is, what does that mean? You know, are you a touring musician, does that mean you don't even have a home? You're just traveling everywhere in your tour bus?
Nora: [00:17:05] In an RV?
Thomas: [00:17:06] Or in an RV, and that's where you live, and you just travel all over the world like that? Or do you take a month out of the year and you go on tour for that month and hopefully you make enough during that month to ... you know, there's a lot of things that that could mean. Can ... can musicians perform locally and make enough money just performing locally? Do they have to go out and tour? Those are all decisions that a ... that a musician has to face when trying to figure out how to make things work financially. And what ... what that really comes down to, I think, in terms of a family, is that ... those decisions are decisions that you need to make together with your family. That's ... that's not ... one of the things that we'll be talking about as we get into today's topic is the fact that you have to understand and realize that any decision you make does not just affect you. It affects your family as well. And so, the ... probably the thing that I think would most beneficial for a musician is looking at it and going "You know what? I think I need to be a touring musician. I need to be going out and traveling." Is to talk about it with you family. And look at the needs that they have. Look at the needs that you have, and look at what's going to work best for your family has a whole. Families need a lot more than just money. Now, money is an essential part of a family. You need to be able to support that family. You need to have money for ... for shelter, for food, for all ... all the things that make your life enjoyable as a family.
Nora: [00:18:44] Worth living.
Thomas: [00:18:45] Yeah. I mean, it's essential. It's part of what is needed, but it's not the only thing your family needs from you. If you're sending checks and you're not there, then ... They can get checks from other places too. You're not providing what you can uniquely provide as well. And so that ... that's ... you know. But there are solutions. There are ways to do this. It's just a matter of making those decisions as a family, not making that decision for your family. I think that's the most important thing. And ... and ... that means having good discussions where all of this information is brought forward and discussed and ...
Nora: [00:19:25] Frank, good discussions.
Thomas: [00:19:27] Frank, good discu ... Thank you! Yes. Very clear discussions about, you know, this is how the money's going to come in. This is what the plan is. Now, how do we make that work for our family? How do we have to adjust the plan, so that it works for the family? You can just ... you can't just ... "Well, this is what I have to do." Well, that's ... that's ... if you're imposing that on your family, that's not necessarily a recipe for a successful family. That being said, let's actually ... let's move on to today's topic, rather than ... you know ... we kind of transitioned into it from questions already, but let's go ahead and start now with the topic of the day.
[Music] [00:20:11]
Thomas: [00:20:19] It's time for the theme of the day.
[Music ends] [00:20:30]
Thomas: [00:20:30] As you know, Nora, I ... I am definitely a dad, because I...
Nora: [00:20:35] With dad jokes intact. [Laughs]
Thomas: [00:20:37] I tell dad jokes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I love the most recent Disney movie that came out,
Both: [00:20:44] Jungle Cruise.
Thomas: [00:20:46] Not because it was a great movie, but because it was a dad movie. It had all of the dad jokes that I'd loved from the ride in Disneyland, so that was all it needed for me. The music didn't even have to be that great for that ... for me to love that particular film. (Laughs) Because I just love dad jokes, and I love bad puns, so ... Today's episode was "Family For-tune" "Family For-tune" ... "Family fortune" There's your pun. I had to explain it again, so I know it wasn't funny. But what today's topic is ... is about how do you mix a creative life with a family life? How do you make that work? And that's why we have Nora on the podcast today, because she can help provide a perspective that I cannot. I can provide the perspective of the artist, but we need to have the perspective of the family as well, so we can discuss and talk about some of the ways that we can make this ... that we can make this work. Now, we have not been perfect about this. We're not going to ... I'm not saying that ... we're not putting our family as a model for this.
Nora: [00:21:53] No. [Laughs]
Thomas: [00:21:58] [Laughs] Because we have not done this extremely well. We've learned the hard way to do ... in a lot of the ways for this. By making a lot of mistakes. The one thing that we've done best ... I think ... is not giving up.
Nora: [00:22:09] Yeah, we have done very well at that.
Thomas: [00:22:11] Yeah, I mean, 28 years ... the reason we've made 28 years is because we just keep trying. Not because we haven't made a lot of mistakes, and ... and we've learned the hard way how to make this work. And we're still learning I'm sure. But ... but I think that it's good to have a good, frank discussion about this publicly, so that others ... other people can see ... you know ... so that maybe we can help other people who might be having some of the same questions and issues that we've run into over the years. And maybe we can help with that process. So, to start off with this discussion, Nora, let's go ahead and ... and ... let me just ask you straight off to start with, what is it like being the family member of someone who is pursuing a creative career?
Nora [00:23:04] Well, honestly, it can be pretty challenging. Financial stability is kind of crucial for a family, and creativity doesn't always necessarily lend itself to that stability, if that makes sense, and that can be hard on a relationship.
Thomas [00:23:26] A lot of artists worry about that, too. And a lot of my students, for instance. I think there are a lot of of students who would like to learn a little bit about music, but they're afraid of really going after it and really pursuing it and putting in the effort that's needed to really get good at it because they're afraid that at the end, they're going to end up unemployed and unable to make a living. So it's a fear that artists share. And so it's not surprising at all that family members share that same concern and worry a little bit. Along those lines, what else is challenging about having a composer for a husband? What else do you find difficult?
Nora [00:24:21] Well, I have a husband who gets hyper focused on whatever he's working on, and sometimes that can be hard on, you know, if someone else, if one of the kids has something that they want us to attend, or if I have something planned and he's hyper focused, that can be challenging.
Thomas [00:24:42] Absolutely. Yeah. I've learned over the years one of the ways that I've tried to deal with that as a composer, myself ... and I do this with everything. So I know myself. I have a tendency to just ... when I'm working on a project to totally ... it's a blessing ...
Both [00:25:01] ... and curse,
Thomas [00:25:03] Right. [Laughter] It's a blessing and a curse to quote Monk on that one, because the focus that flow, the ability to get into flow is a state that is very hyper productive. You can get a lot done. You can do a lot of really good work when you're in that mode. And so it's a blessing in that regard for the artist, because if he can do that, things really start cooking for him. And a lot of times when you get in that kind of mindset, you're really happy with what you come out with at the end. But, at the same time, you lose track of time, you lose track of anything else.
Nora [00:25:47] Yeah, and when you're hyper focused like that, everything and everyone else disappears.
Thomas [00:25:52] Yeah. And you could come in ... and you have ... you come into the room and said, "Hey, Thomas," and I'm ... and I'm totally focused. And I don't even hear you because my mind is just imagining in this world. It's in this rich inner world that's going on and the rest of the world, the outer world disappears. And so I've learned ... some of the things I've learned to do with that is, for instance, to set an alarm on my computer and to schedule that time. Okay, this is when I'm going to be hyper focused. When it ends, I need to be able to break free from that. I need to say, okay, times up. It's time to go back into the real world.
Nora [00:26:27] And that's what I was going to say next was ... with creative people trying to strike a balance between their art and their families and their relationships. One of the things you have to do is become very proficient at time management. You have to set those alarms. You have to treat it like a business. You know? You have to have your work hours.
Thomas [00:26:51] Yeah. And that's something that I think creative people shy away from. They don't want to do the nine to five thing. But ... what they don't understand is they can do that. There's this belief out there for creative people, I think, that when inspiration strikes, you've got to be ...
Nora [00:27:10] Right.
Thomas [00:27:10] ... right on top of it.
Nora [00:27:11] You have to be right on top of it. You have to do it that second.
Thomas [00:27:14] ... because it came in that moment and you don't.
Nora [00:27:16] Inspiration. But something I've noticed is that would you let it percolate a little bit? Sometimes it can be the better for it.
Thomas [00:27:25] Yes. I've also noticed that if true inspiration comes, if it's really good, I will remember it later. Right? [Laughter] I can write down something to remind myself of what the idea was basically. And the good part of that will come back to me later. The stuff that if I try to hold on to every single little detail, a lot of times, I would have gotten rid of those details anyway. They don't stick. They stick when they're good. [Laughter] And so you can train yourself as an artist to ... to be creative on a schedule. You really can. I had an instructor at BYU ... His name was Dr. Merrill Bradshaw ... and he had a routine for composing. Now he was teaching and a lot of artists do. A lot of composers have been able to support their families by teaching. That's what I do. And then ... but he would have a specific set time every morning when he would compose. And he taught us when he was at BYU, that you can ... as you form the habit, you can train yourself to get your ideas during that time. And because your brain is working on it constantly anyway, in the background, it's in your subconscious.
Nora [00:28:44] Love it.
Thomas [00:28:45] And you can train yourself to bring it from the subconscious to the conscious mind at the same time each day by having a routine. This is when I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write and I'm going to work. So that's what he did. And I believe it. It really does work ... if you can establish a routine, a time when you're going to work on your creative endeavors, whatever time period that's going to be. That's for people who are both full time composers or full time creative people or people who are doing it part time. Creative people ... They've been able to do it part time, full time, whatever, by focusing on being part time or full time. Whatever time you have available, if you can organize and use good time management and say, this is the time when I get to compose, this is the time for my family. This is the time for my other job that's paying the bills. If that's what you need to do, right? [Laughter] You can make it work. You just got to have really good time management and make it a part of your routine so that those creative ideas are there. Now, an idea might come to you in the middle of the night, right? An idea might come to you when you're driving or whatever. I think it's a good practice to have a way of recording that idea quickly. Not long term, not flesh it out, not take it and run with it and go see where it goes, but just have a way of, "Hey, I love this idea." Write it down or hit record on my phone and just say, hey, this is my idea. Give yourself enough so that you can find it and use it when it's your composing time ... when it's your creative time. That can be very useful as well. And also I find that allows me to let go of something. If I don't write it down, then it kind of bounces around my brain some more and it can distract from other things I might be trying to do, because I'm trying to sort through that thing. But if I can write down enough of the idea that I know I'm going to get to it later, then I can let it go and focus on and be where I need to be when I need to be there.
Thomas [00:30:53] That's the other thing. I think that is really important. And you're very nice to not say this, dear, but when you're with your family, you need to be present with your family.
Nora [00:31:06] Yes.
Thomas [00:31:06] You can't ... you can't ... I know I've been guilty of this at the times where I've had an idea and it's been working, and so I'm fifty percent wherever I am, doing whatever I'm doing and fifty percent composing in my head.
Nora [00:31:19] Well, and you wouldn't be human if that weren't the case. Honestly.
Thomas [00:31:23] Okay. But there's got to be a way to deal with that, right? Because that can be very frustrating for a family. When you're with your family, they will be very, very understanding of your creative endeavors as long as you give them their time as well.
Nora [00:31:39] Yeah. Yeah. And if I were to give some advice to family members, that would be what it would be. Be honest. I mean, not like screaming in their face, but ... you know ... be honest, have a frank discussion and be like, look, I'm not getting what I need out of this. This isn't working for me. So we need to adjust.
Thomas [00:32:00] And do it in a way that's understanding, too. Right?
Nora [00:32:04] Well, yes, you have to be patient, and you have to like I said, don't get in their face and yell at them. But that's not ever going to work.
Thomas [00:32:12] Finding a way to communicate about the needs and the feelings in a way that's not threatening. It's like, okay ... Family members, "Boy, you've been working really, really hard lately, and we felt a little bit neglected as the family. We love that your composer. We love that you write music. We love your music. We love to hear ... it's so exciting for us that you're able to do this. We love how excited you get when you have this idea ...
Nora [00:32:39] ... and how energized.
Thomas [00:32:40] ... how energized. We love that about you. We don't want to take that away from you. We just need to balance this somehow. And right now it feels a little out of balance. How can we? And I know it can be frustrating to have to be scheduled as a family, but sometimes you have to schedule things, right?
Nora [00:32:58] Yeah.
Thomas [00:32:58] And so can we schedule some time when you're going to put all that aside and you're going to be just with the family and we're going to have some good time together.
Nora [00:33:07] But, Tom ...
Thomas [00:33:07] Yeah.
Nora [00:33:08] In any career, a family you have to schedule time for it.
Thomas [00:33:12] Wonderful. That's what was my next thought too. Artists tend to treat their creative endeavors like they're something something out of the ordinary, like because it's art, because it's music, it's somehow more important than other jobs. I know some artists who are divorced, for instance, and they said I had to make a choi ... My wife wanted me to choose between her and my art. And so ...
Nora [00:33:44] I chose my art.
Thomas [00:33:45] I chose my art or whatever. Maybe they did choose their wife, and then they resented that. That's another possibility, right.
Nora [00:33:52] Yeah.
Thomas [00:33:53] But that's because they think of their art as this so huge and important thing. It is important, but it's only as important as as a lot of jobs out there. In a lot of ways. You have to treat it professionally. You have to treat your artistic endeavors professionally, and that means that it has its time. It has its place. But it's not more important than people.
Nora [00:34:22] I love that.
Thomas [00:34:23] In fact, without people, art has no meaning at all because art is about the human experience. And if you're putting your art above people and above the human experience, then your art will not make those connections anyway. You can't put art ahead of people. You shouldn't put your careers ahead of people. There's no job out there that should be so important that you can't that you can't put your family first in some way. That you can't make your family the priority. If you fail in your family because of your career or because of your art and you sacrifice your family for that, I think you sacrifice the better thing for the not as important thing. Now, that doesn't mean that the other stuff isn't important, but your family should be most important. That's always the way I have felt. And I think maybe that's why, despite all the times where I have, you know, made mistakes as an artist that have made family life a bit difficult. That fundamental decision ... my family is going to come first, and then whatever comes after that ... That fundamental decision has made the difference. So that because then I could recognize, oh, I blew it. I didn't make the right choice here. I need to put my priority back on my family, instead of insisting, oh, no, no, no, you don't understand. It's my music! [Laughter]
Thomas [00:36:13] Right? I think that's a fundamental difference. And one of the reasons we've been able get through some of the struggles that creative people and their families face.
Nora [00:36:22] Agreed. That and the fact that we're just really stubborn.
Thomas [00:36:26] That's true. [Laughter] Stubbornness is a really big, important part of it. And the other thing is to get. Selfishness ... And this is true of any family situation ... It's not just artists. When ... selfishness is the biggest cause of family strife.
Nora [00:36:46] Agreed.
Thomas [00:36:46] I really believe that.
Nora [00:36:48] I absolutely agree.
Thomas [00:36:49] And it takes both spouses. It takes even the kids. It takes everybody in the family recognizing when they're being selfish and trying to fix it. [Laughter] Right?
Nora [00:37:05] Yeah.
Thomas [00:37:06] To get through because we all have tendencies to be selfish at different times. And we just ... we need to recognize that and say, you know what?
Nora [00:37:15] I can do better.
Thomas [00:37:16] That's right. I can do better. I can put my family ahead of me because I'm going to get plenty. There's plenty of life. I'm going to get plenty for myself. I need to make sure that there's plenty for my family. And if you're doing it for each other ... if you're looking out for each other ... if my number one job is to make sure that you are happy, Nora, and that's the fundamental underlying thing ...
Nora [00:37:43] ... and vice versa.
Thomas [00:37:44] I was getting there. [Laughter] That's the fundamental thing that makes every decision for me. And then you feel the same way because it takes both of us doing that, that you feel like your number one job is to make sure that I'm happy and that my life is fulfilling. Then we find ways to solve the problems. That doesn't mean the problems go away. Or that there aren't conflicts of different kinds. It means that because we've made that decision, that fundamental decision, independently, each of us, we can find a way to to make it work ... to solve our problems. It's hard. We haven't made it. We're 28 years on, but we've got a long way to go still.
Nora [00:38:29] We're not out of the woods. [Laughter]
Thomas [00:38:31] But if we keep that our fundamental choice, I think that's what's going to help us as we face other things as we go on.
Nora [00:38:42] I agree.
Thomas [00:38:43] Any other advice you can give to family members of creative people?
Nora [00:38:51] Be patient, because sometimes they will let you down. Sometimes they will be hyper focused. Sometimes they're not going to be there when you need them. You know? Be patient and don't give up.
Thomas [00:39:05] Forgiveness of each other. Right?
Nora [00:39:08] Yeah. Absolutely.
Thomas [00:39:09] Sometimes to a creative person, it can feel like that your family doesn't understand, especially if they're not pursuing that as a career.
Nora [00:39:18] And sometimes they won't honestly.
Thomas [00:39:20] Right. And they don't know maybe what it's like to get into that flow. And you're very, very agitated at that moment. And when somebody interrupts you when you're in the flow, it's very easy to be grumpy.
Nora [00:39:37] Yeah, it is. [Laughter]
Thomas [00:39:37] Oh! I was going. I was going and ...
Nora [00:39:42] You ruined it. [Laughter]
Thomas [00:39:43] You ruined the moment for me. I'm never gonna recover. And so ... forgiveness. They're not always going to be able to understand the other person is not always going to be able to understand you. But you can try and you can say, you know what? They're trying. [Laughter]
Nora [00:40:04] Be like Galaxy Quest? Never give up, never surrender.
Thomas [00:40:07] Absolutely. Never give up, never surrender. Be like Dori. Just keep swimming. [Laughter] We've got our mottos all over the place to help us through this, [Laughter] but they reflect things that we've learned as we've tried to go through that. So how about this question? What do you think , Nora? Does it help if other members of the family also have creative interests?
Nora [00:40:32] Absolutely. I mean, it couldn't hurt. Like I said, honestly, creativity is part of everyday life. Everything we do can be creative.
Thomas [00:40:44] You know, I've often said and I really believe that we are inherently creative.
Nora [00:40:50] I agree.
Thomas [00:40:51] That's a basic ...
Nora [00:40:52] ... a basic human trait
Thomas [00:40:54] A basic human trait that we're all born with. You can see it in kids. They are absolutely inherently creative. And then life kind of beats it out of us, right?
Nora [00:41:03] Yeah.
Thomas [00:41:04] Yeah. Because ...
Nora [00:41:06] You have to color that flower just so. The grass is green, the sky is blue. But what if it isn't?
Thomas [00:41:13] Right. The what ifs go away ...
Nora [00:41:15] You know?
Thomas [00:41:15] Because we're so busy doing the practical thing.
Nora [00:41:19] Doing the way it's supposed to be.
Thomas [00:41:21] You're supposed to go to school, you're supposed to become a lawyer, all those things. And yet the people who really excel in anything never lose that creative spark.
Nora [00:41:33] And they're also the ones that are very passionate.
Thomas [00:41:35] Yeah. They find new solutions in whatever they're going after. They're always creating new things. And they don't lose that passion inside for that creative spark to do things in a new way, a better way, trying to improve. And they're not threatened ...
Nora [00:42:00] Agreed.
Thomas [00:42:01] They're not threatened by change or by doing things differently. Just to see what happens. We live in a world where there's a lot of fear. And I think fear is one of the biggest problems that we face in our society now. I mean, you see it coming out more than ever in some of the politics and some of the things we're seeing going on right now. But fear is the enemy of creativity. And that means fear is the enemy of the solutions that we need, because we need creative solutions to the problems we face.
Nora [00:42:33] Agreed.
Thomas [00:42:35] So we need to get rid of fear. We need to not make decisions from a place of fear. We talked about some of the worries that artists have ... that families have ... about being able to make a living. There are solutions out there. People make livings, being creative, creating music. They do it. They succeed in do it. They find their own way to do it ...
Nora [00:43:02] Or writing or painting or even sewing. You know?
Thomas [00:43:06] Yeah.
Nora [00:43:06] There are Quilters who make hundreds and thousands of dollars from quilts.
Thomas [00:43:11] And they do it because they try.
Nora [00:43:14] They do it because they're passionate about it.
Thomas [00:43:15] Yep. They're passionate about it. They enjoy it. They love it. They love being creative. And people respond to that. People respond to that creative spark. And that's the experience that we are trying to create for our audiences, for our customers, our clients.
Nora [00:43:33] It's about the joy.
Thomas [00:43:36] And if you have fear, you can't have that joy. You can't create that joy. You've got to get rid of that fear. You've got to put yourself out there. You've got to try, and the best way ... And this is where families become so important, because that's where you can get this from ... where you can overcome this fear is when you do this together as a family, you can do so much more than you can do individually, because you believe in each other. You can lift each other. You can say, when I know that when I write a song, and you love that song, and you're excited about it. And you're excited about the things I'm excited about creating. That gives me more faith to be able to keep trying and keep getting better, because I know, hey, there's someone who believes in me. I don't need a lot of people who believe it's great to have an audience. I need a big audience to sell my stuff to. [Laughter] But people that actually believe in me and who know me, I just need a few. I just need the people who are closest to me, and that will lift me as an artist. And that'll help me to face and get rid of that fear and be creative. Families are so important for that. So I think it's important that families know how important they are for the creative person ... that they know that they need that belief. They need that support, because it is scary to try something that people haven't tried before. It is scary to put something out there into the public that you invented yourself. And you believe it's good to yourself. But is it really good? You don't know. How are you constantly going to know if it's good or not before you put it out there?
Nora [00:45:23] And risk rejection.
Thomas [00:45:24] It takes a leap of faith to do that.
Nora [00:45:27] It absolutely does.
Thomas [00:45:28] And where can you get that? Best place to get that is from your family. Families are so important for artists. And also the best joy in life comes from the family. I believe that, too. I've so enjoyed creating music, and it's exciting. It's really cool, but that fades ... that fades. Okay. The song is so great. I'm so excited about it, and I get that out there. I get done with it. A little bit later on, it's like, "Okay, next song." [Laughter] Right? That fades that ... even those exciting moments fade. But the joy that comes with being a father and with being a husband, that doesn't fade. And this is why those artists that have chosen their art over their family, because they are put in a situation where they had to or they felt like they had to or simply because they felt like their art was so important that they weren't going to have a family
Thomas [00:46:30] Again. This is a personal opinion. People are going to disagree with me, I think.
Nora [00:46:33] It's tragic.
Thomas [00:46:34] But in my feeling, because of the experiences I've had, there is no greater joy than that of being a father, of being a husband, of being a son. And that's something I would never sacrifice for my art because that doesn't fade. That just grows and gets better and better. For me, at least, it's the greatest joy in my life.
Thomas [00:47:06] Alright, any last thoughts you have Nora before we ...
Nora [00:47:11] Nope. I just I want to reassure people that it can be done. I mean, we're here 28 years in still rocking and rolling right along, but it can be done, and we're proof of it.
Thomas [00:47:27] Yep. You just have to make it a priority. You have to make having a family be your number one priority. And then as a family, if you make these creative endeavors something that you value and you try to make time for and make them work within your family structure, you can make it work. It's ... That order ... It's is setting up those priorities that really makes a difference.
Nora [00:47:53] And expectations.
Thomas [00:47:54] Wonderful. Well, thank you, Nora. I so appreciate you being willing to come onto this podcast with me. I know it's a bit nerve wracking to have your voice out there and having people listening to it, but I really appreciate your insight. I appreciate 28 years of loyalty that you've given to me ... and love ... and thank you for coming on and helping with this podcast.
Nora [00:48:22] My pleasure.
Thomas [00:48:23] Listeners out there, if you have any thoughts or questions for Nora, you'll have to reach her through me. But you can come and join us on our Discord. Remember, we have our Discord channel. It's called A Composer's Habitat. In the show notes I'll put the link as I do each week so that you can join us there in our discord channel for our discussions. We do continue discussing these topics in a much more dialogue kind of situation for our Discord channel. I also want to remind you of our Patreon. If you would like to support the show and help us to get maybe some better voice over or something like that to improve our Patreon and to help us with our efforts to make this show something that's valuable and useful to the creative community, then please, you can check us out on our Patreon, which is patreon.com/composerhabitat. And thank you for listening. Thank you for your comments and questions and look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Until next time. Keep creating.
[Music] [00:49:37]
Thomas [00:49:41] Thanks for listening. A Composer In His Natural Habitat is made possible by the support and donations of listeners like you. We welcome your thoughts and comments on today's show on our Discord channel: A Composer's Habitat. If you would like to help support the show, please join our Patreon by going to patreon.com/composerhabitat. Musical themes by Thomas C. Baggaley. Special thanks to Nora for putting up with me for all these years and for coming on the show. Until next time. Keep creating.
[Music ends] [00:51:32]